Help buying a gun

[WGP 1]

Originally Posted by Spyglass

Well, that's if you're playing at a commercial field. If he's playing woodsball, it's likely that he might be playing outlaw ball, and doesn't have the option of using rentals. In that case, he needs his own gear, and it's best to start small and learn the trade.

very true, make sure you have a mask either way though!!

[fieryfizzion213]

Originally Posted by xcowboy123

i think a better option for a first gun may even be the smart parts vibe

Took the words right out of my mouth, and I'll explain why.

Although shooting for accuracy may seem like a really good idea, it might not yield the highest success rate, so you should be able to shoot at least somewhat fast--maybe 5-8 BPS. To achieve that speed, you'll need an electronic marker.

If my advice of shooting at a decent speed isn't fit for you, though, spending hundreds more on a marker will only slightly improve your marker's accuracy. Besides, I'm definitely one to agree with buying a cheaper gun when you're just starting paintball, especially when there are so many other things that could vastly improve your game (i.e. HPA tank, electronic loader, nice mask, and paintball apparel). I first got into paintball by playing with a few friends in the woods, and I really got into it, but some my friends may have used their paintball gear four or five times, while others haven't used their gear since they bought them. If you have the money and know that you're going to really get into it, then go ahead and buy a $300 gun on top of other paintball essentials, but otherwise, I think $150 for a Vibe, whose accuracy can't be much worse with an upgraded barrel, is a much better investment.

When you buy electronic guns that are higher in price than $200 (around the price of an Ion), you're not so much paying for accuracy as you are for features--namely for speedball. For example, there are more advanced firing modes, options to fine-tune how long pressure is allowed to gather before the bolt shoots (to affect air efficiency, rate of fire, and velocity), and options to cap how fast you can shoot (mostly for tournament legality). In the higher price range, you're also paying for things like on/off ASA's for off-the-field maintenance, Q-lock feednecks (in some cases), air efficiency, and eyes (which only help if you're shooting really fast or if your loader jams). The only things I just mentioned that you should have any care for is an on/off ASA for convenience. Eyes do help for woodsball as well as speedball, but, again, unless your loader jams, which is unlikely with a decent $30-50 electronic loader, then you won't need them. Air efficiency is something that everyone always wants, but if you don't shoot much, then it shouldn't be a problem at all for you--even at 5-8 BPS, which I advised before.

Basically, according to what you've specified as what you're looking for, the best gun to go with (in my opinion, of course), is the Smart Parts Vibe with a new barrel that has a bore well-matched with the paint you use. Anything else, and you're paying for features you don't need unless you start playing speedball very seriously. I've used a Vibe for beginner/intermediate (at least, so I think) speedball, and I've been shooting at its capacity of 10-11 BPS. Haven't had a problem with it except when it chopped a lot because it needed internal cleaning. It normally won't chop, since it has an anti-chop bolt, which is like a cheaper version of eyes. And, just to be more explicit, accuracy isn't too bad, either. Of course, it's not as good as a $500 gun, but it's good for its price range, and I was just using the stock barrel, which is way overbored and too short (8").

Get a Vibe. =) If you can afford it, though, and you think you might (even in the slightest chance) play speedball or, at the very least, shoot faster in the future, G3's and Invert Mini's are very nice for just $150 more. ($150 isn't all that much in paintball, sadly.)

By the way, I forgot to mention really old (but high-end) guns that might go for around $400. You might try looking for used Ego5's or Ego6's online, which, in theory, should have amazing accuracy as well as all the nice speedball-based features, although they might be outdated. Regulators might, for example, not be as air-efficient. If you're interested, linkinparkkid345 currently has his Ego5 up for sale. Details can be found at this thread.

[Spyglass]

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

Took the words right out of my mouth, and I'll explain why.

Although shooting for accuracy may seem like a really good idea, it might not yield the highest success rate, so you should be able to shoot at least somewhat fast--maybe 5-8 BPS. To achieve that speed, you'll need an electronic marker.

Actually, most blowback markers nowadays can achieve 8 bps with a gravity feed hopper, so achieving a decent speed is possible with something like a Spyder or Tippmann.

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

If my advice of shooting at a decent speed isn't fit for you, though, spending hundreds more on a marker will only slightly improve your marker's accuracy. Besides, I'm definitely one to agree with buying a cheaper gun when you're just starting paintball, especially when there are so many other things that could vastly improve your game (i.e. HPA tank, electronic loader, nice mask, and paintball apparel). I first got into paintball by playing with a few friends in the woods, and I really got into it, but some my friends may have used their paintball gear four or five times, while others haven't used their gear since they bought them. If you have the money and know that you're going to really get into it, then go ahead and buy a $300 gun on top of other paintball essentials, but otherwise, I think $150 for a Vibe, whose accuracy can't be much worse with an upgraded barrel, is a much better investment.

You could really go for just about any marker on the market if you're looking for accuracy (except Brass Eagle, of course). Most of your accuracy depends on the quality of the paintballs that you are shooting, not on the quality of the marker that shoots them. Because paintballs are all fired at the same speed, none will go any farther than any other (aside from Tiberius Arms' First Strike paintballs that cost an arm and a leg), and the quality of the paintball's aerodynamics is the deciding factor in how accurate your shot is.

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

When you buy electronic guns that are higher in price than $200 (around the price of an Ion), you're not so much paying for accuracy as you are for features--namely for speedball. For example, there are more advanced firing modes, options to fine-tune how long pressure is allowed to gather before the bolt shoots (to affect air efficiency, rate of fire, and velocity), and options to cap how fast you can shoot (mostly for tournament legality). In the higher price range, you're also paying for things like on/off ASA's for off-the-field maintenance, Q-lock feednecks (in some cases), air efficiency, and eyes (which only help if you're shooting really fast or if your loader jams). The only things I just mentioned that you should have any care for is an on/off ASA for convenience. Eyes do help for woodsball as well as speedball, but, again, unless your loader jams, which is unlikely with a decent $30-50 electronic loader, then you won't need them. Air efficiency is something that everyone always wants, but if you don't shoot much, then it shouldn't be a problem at all for you--even at 5-8 BPS, which I advised before.

You don't need any fancy features starting off. Once you've been playing for a while, you can find out exactly what you want in a marker and pay more based on that, but starting off basic will let you know what you need to suit your game the best, and leaves the fewest avenues of damaging your marker. Trust me, it's no fun when your marker goes down and you can't play because some technological feature put onto the marker with the intent of helping breaks down and actually causes a deficit in quality.

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

Get a Vibe. =) If you can afford it, though, and you think you might (even in the slightest chance) play speedball or, at the very least, shoot faster in the future, G3's and Invert Mini's are very nice for just $150 more. ($150 isn't all that much in paintball, sadly.)

You shouldn't start with a high-quality marker that is better than the makers of those around you. If anything, start with one that is slightly worse to give yourself a handicap. I know that it sounds tough, but you'll get over your inferior marker by trying harder and learning new skills to keep up with the others on the field. Then, when you purchase a better marker, you get to use your skills with a great marker, a combination that will make you respected on the field. If you get a high-end marker to start, however, you're likely to focus on using your marker's abilities rather than building your own, and you won't actually learn to play paintball any more than pulling the trigger really fast.

[fieryfizzion213]

Originally Posted by Spyglass

Actually, most blowback markers nowadays can achieve 8 bps with a gravity feed hopper, so achieving a decent speed is possible with something like a Spyder or Tippmann.

Have you ever tried shooting 8 BPS on a mechanical Tippmann? =/ I don't know about mechanical Spyders, but the triggers on some electric Spyders are near impossible to walk for an extended period of time, and having a mechanical Spyder can't be too much easier. The trigger on a Vibe is nimble. It's a great trigger to learn to walk on. That's how I did it. Before that, the max I could achieve was probably 4 BPS.

Originally Posted by Spyglass

You could really go for just about any marker on the market if you're looking for accuracy (except Brass Eagle, of course). Most of your accuracy depends on the quality of the paintballs that you are shooting, not on the quality of the marker that shoots them. Because paintballs are all fired at the same speed, none will go any farther than any other (aside from Tiberius Arms' First Strike paintballs that cost an arm and a leg), and the quality of the paintball's aerodynamics is the deciding factor in how accurate your shot is.

I don't disagree that most accuracy depends on paint and barrels, but then there's also a precision factor. In higher-end guns, velocity is more consistent, giving a smaller possible area for paint to hit and, thus, precision. It's the same concept as HPA vs. CO2. Of course, the difference between guns might not be as drastic as that between different propellants, but since it is Spyder that we're talking about here, there is a bit of uncertainty.

Originally Posted by Spyglass

You don't need any fancy features starting off. Once you've been playing for a while, you can find out exactly what you want in a marker and pay more based on that, but starting off basic will let you know what you need to suit your game the best, and leaves the fewest avenues of damaging your marker. Trust me, it's no fun when your marker goes down and you can't play because some technological feature put onto the marker with the intent of helping breaks down and actually causes a deficit in quality.

Nothing here that I can argue with except that I don't think an on/off ASA could easily turn into a hindrance, so if it's something you can get without having to buy anything else, then it might be worth the money. Otherwise, don't bother.

Originally Posted by Spyglass

You shouldn't start with a high-quality marker that is better than the makers of those around you. If anything, start with one that is slightly worse to give yourself a handicap. I know that it sounds tough, but you'll get over your inferior marker by trying harder and learning new skills to keep up with the others on the field. Then, when you purchase a better marker, you get to use your skills with a great marker, a combination that will make you respected on the field. If you get a high-end marker to start, however, you're likely to focus on using your marker's abilities rather than building your own, and you won't actually learn to play paintball any more than pulling the trigger really fast.

If you have the discipline to limit how fast you shoot through board-programming, then I don't see a problem; it's not like having eyes, (mildly) better accuracy, or better air efficiency can hinder how you learn to play--it's only the firing rate that could do this. If you don't have the discipline to do this, I still think the Vibe is a good choice, since it's capped at 11 BPS, which isn't too high--at least not as high as 35+ on higher-end guns. Starting speedball with a Vibe hasn't made me a worse player than I could've been, I don't think. That might be because I was unwilling to shoot much, though, since paint is expensive. =/
If you start paintball and do get a Vibe or, for that matter, any other gun that is capable of more than 5 BPS in your hands, it would be a good rule of thumb that if you're going through more than a hopperful per game, then you should consider shooting less. If you shoot a hopperful and a pod, then you're definitely shooting too much. I only think this to apply to speedball, though... I'm not sure about woods or scenario, although I am sure it depends on how big the field and teams are.

[Spyglass]

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

Have you ever tried shooting 8 BPS on a mechanical Tippmann? =/ I don't know about mechanical Spyders, but the triggers on some electric Spyders are near impossible to walk for an extended period of time, and having a mechanical Spyder can't be too much easier. The trigger on a Vibe is nimble. It's a great trigger to learn to walk on. That's how I did it. Before that, the max I could achieve was probably 4 BPS.

I'm sorry, but how hard did you try when shooting mechanical markers? I used them for the first two years of playing, and I could get 8 bps out of my Spyder Xtra 2003 and Tippmann Custom Pro after playing only a few games with them.

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

I don't disagree that most accuracy depends on paint and barrels, but then there's also a precision factor. In higher-end guns, velocity is more consistent, giving a smaller possible area for paint to hit and, thus, precision. It's the same concept as HPA vs. CO2. Of course, the difference between guns might not be as drastic as that between different propellants, but since it is Spyder that we're talking about here, there is a bit of uncertainty.

Velocity consistency is based purely on the quality of the final regulator which the fluid passes through. If you have a good reg, then the air pressure which contacts the paintball will be more consistent than one with a poor reg. Spring pressure from blowbacks will be constant and will offer the same pressure reliably. While a Spyder may not be the most accurate marker out there, it will get the job done. Besides, you and I both know that his inclination to "play for accuracy" is not likely to last long, and he is probably thinking of becoming the nonexistent paintball sharpshooter that every new player wants to be. Dealing with a slightly less accurate marker will teach the balues of stealth, communication, and movement.

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

Nothing here that I can argue with except that I don't think an on/off ASA could easily turn into a hindrance, so if it's something you can get without having to buy anything else, then it might be worth the money. Otherwise, don't bother.

Okay, an on-off isn't likely to go down, but many other things (electronics) may be susceptible to the elements if you are careless with them, like a new player may be (speaking from experience), and without proper care which a new player might not want to undergo for their marker, other parts (regulators) may also go bad. Blowbacks, while not the most accurate platforms out there, are reliable for playability without lubrication. I played with my Spyder for a year and a half and my Tippmann for a year before I lubed either of them, and neither of them had given me trouble.

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

If you have the discipline to limit how fast you shoot through board-programming, then I don't see a problem; it's not like having eyes, (mildly) better accuracy, or better air efficiency can hinder how you learn to play--it's only the firing rate that could do this. If you don't have the discipline to do this, I still think the Vibe is a good choice, since it's capped at 11 BPS, which isn't too high--at least not as high as 35+ on higher-end guns. Starting speedball with a Vibe hasn't made me a worse player than I could've been, I don't think. That might be because I was unwilling to shoot much, though, since paint is expensive. =/

The idea is that a lower rate of fire will be the main handicap which will make you do more as far as skill. Shake-and-shoot and fanning the trigger make you rely on angles and teammates more in order to get eliminations, and make you use stealthier tactics in order to avoid your own elimination. If you get those down beforehand, your woods game will be that much better. Besides, when I first started playing airball, my Spyder and I were able to take on plenty of dudes shooting electros at 25+ bps. That being said, however, I've been using my Mini and have been there when my snake side, including me, was taken out in a run-through by a kid with a 2005 Spyder Victor (yeah, the one where your front hand only holds onto a piece of steel hose) and some of the best game I've ever seen. It makes you work for skill that you can use to your full advantage once you do get that amazing e-gun.

Originally Posted by fieryfizzion213

If you start paintball and do get a Vibe or, for that matter, any other gun that is capable of more than 5 BPS in your hands, it would be a good rule of thumb that if you're going through more than a hopperful per game, then you should consider shooting less. If you shoot a hopperful and a pod, then you're definitely shooting too much. I only think this to apply to speedball, though... I'm not sure about woods or scenario, although I am sure it depends on how big the field and teams are.

This is kind of what I've been getting at. Slow down your ROF and actually play instead of shooting the other guy into submission, and you'll do fine. (Ever watch a pump player use a marker with 25 bps? He moves up the tapeline amazingly from his pump skills, and then rips his opponents open with his high ROF. Same basic principal.)

[fieryfizzion213]

I think we agree on everything, but I still think shooting at a decent speed on a mechanical is tough. D= I didn't measure how fast I fired my Tippmann 98 Custom before selling it, but it was fatiguing to empty a 20oz. bottle of CO2 because of so much trigger resistance. =/

[Spyglass]

You've just got to learn to fan the trigger. It's easier with double triggers, which is what I like about Spyders, since they all come with double triggers now.

[PB4LVince]

$300-400 is a big range if your starting out
Go with protos, dyes, dangerous power.

Anything really easy to maintain.

[duckyboy1975]

I'd with with a Dye or a cheaper Spyder paintball gun if it's your first. Get a feel for it and buy a better one once you know what kind of player you are.